MRSA infection in pets and animals forum

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Vets & Debarking Operation. Started by Denis Carthy IP Address 86.142.45.80	Posted: September 15, 2006 at 11:31

I am interested in feedback from vets on the debarking operation on welfare grounds, it’s probably more relevant to city vets than country vets. I’m sure that many city vets are confronted with pet owners whose dogs cause environment noise nuisance problems as the result of anti-social nuisance barking. In council owned properties almost all tenants sign an agreement that they will not keep pets, however, the vast majority of councils overlook enforcing this as a matter of unofficial policy unless there is a nuisance problem with a tenants dog. One of the most common serious problems, regardless of what property someone lives in is nuisance barking, especially in the owners absence which could with some people be many hours per day. The law is clear on this and the most common options are that the tenant removes the dog from council premises if on council estates, some councils might give one warning depending on the severity of complaints, most issue a one warning notice that the noise must cease and take legal action very shortly after if the noise does not stop (evidence permitting). The next available step is a noise abatement order this would be a criminal offence with a max of £5000 fine and £500 per day for every offending incident after. If a vet is confronted with this situation and suggests the dog is put into rescue there is every chance the dog will simply be re-homed with the same problem, end up back in rescue a few times and eventually be PTS because it cannot be re-homed. One other option is for a vet to perform a debarking operation, as I understand it this involves the severing of the larynx so the dog cannot make a barking noise. As severe as this appears to be it would secure the dogs entire life in the security of a loving home as opposed to the stress and uncertainty of the revolving door, already overwhelmed rescue centre situation. I would like to know how many vets would offer this option to a pet dog owner who had received a written warning and whose time to stop the problem barking was limited to a couple of days if they approached a vet with the problem. Thanks. 18144

Re: Vets & Debarking Operation. Reply #1 by Julie-2 IP Address 62.253.128.15	Posted: September 15, 2006 at 11:37

This is an interesting question, I would be interested to hear responses. Surely councils would have to give reasonable time if the owner could show they were seeking help in training the dog not to be so vocal ? 18146

Re: Vets & Debarking Operation. Reply #2 by Denis Carthy IP Address 86.142.45.80	Posted: September 15, 2006 at 11:43

Reply #1 by Julie-2 Surely councils would have to give reasonable time Denis In London it varies from no warning at all to-get rid of now- to Westminster which has banned dogs from all of its estates, acording to their environmental officer barking was one the main reasons. 18147

Re: Vets & Debarking Operation. Reply #3 by Denis Carthy IP Address 86.142.45.80	Posted: September 15, 2006 at 11:52

PS to above - In fact it happened this year to someone in a houseing trust property who I used to see in a local park - apparently some complaints went to the trust and they issued a notice to get rid of the dog there and then, which she did within a few days. 18148

Re: Vets & Debarking Operation. Reply #4 by yet another vet IP Address 217.44.62.128	Posted: September 15, 2006 at 18:11

http://www.rcvs.org.uk/Templates/PreviousNext.asp?NodeID=89772&int1stParentNodeID=89642 18157

Re: Vets & Debarking Operation. Reply #5 by yet another vet IP Address 217.44.62.128	Posted: September 15, 2006 at 18:13

"CATEGORY C: UNACCEPTABLE PROCEDURES a. When carried out for non-therapeutic reasons whereas if carried out for therapeutic purposes they are acceptable and fall under Category B(b) above i All those procedures referred to in Category B(b) above b. Being normally carried out for non-therapeutic reasons only and when those reasons are not considered adequate to justify their being carried out i Branding, corrosive chemical ii Branding, hot (NB: legislation covering farm livestock) iii Cropping of ears iv Devoicing (birds, dogs, horses, mules)" 18158

Re: Vets & Debarking Operation. Reply #6 by ex vet IP Address 213.78.123.200	Posted: September 15, 2006 at 18:29

Absolutely not!, would you like your vocal cords removed? In a situation of a barking dog; address the underlying problem causing it to bark excessively, rehome it, or failing all else euthanasia. 18161

Re: Vets & Debarking Operation. Reply #7 by YAAV IP Address 86.40.100.74	Posted: September 15, 2006 at 18:35

A colleague of mine was put in this position by the RCVS some time ago. The owner was looking for a debarking procedure to be carried out. My colleague was told in no uncertain terms that he faced striking off for directly disobeying a direct mandate on debarking. He acquiesced and the dog was put to sleep. This sad tale is true. It might seem severe, but if debarking was allowed for any reason, it would be carried out wholesale and the reason misused. If an owner has a choice between debarking or removing the dog, they can rehome the dog to a more suitable location. Debarking removes an animal of a normal faculty of expression and has no medical benefit. Having said all of that, it seems that it is treated as a black-and-white issue even in exceptional circumstances. Not a situation that I would rest easy with either way... 18162

Re: Vets & Debarking Operation. Reply #8 by Denis Carthy IP Address 86.142.40.252	Posted: September 15, 2006 at 19:56

Reply #7 by YAAV they can rehome the dog to a more suitable location. Denis No, the chances of succesful rehoming are very remote at the very best - I dont expect vets to monitor all the various welfare problems faceing each species but dogs are in an crisis as regards succesfull rehoming. There is not a rescue home in the UK which is not in constant overflow, around last Xmas the RSPCA at leicster had dogs tied up outside abandoned by unknown people which it could not take. Succesfull rehoming of a nuisance barking, but otherwise behavioural problem free dog is virtualy impossible, it simply passes the same problem on to someone else and their neighbours. If you read the thread on 1 stray/lost UK dog per hour PTS That gives some idea of the scale of the rescue problem. I would say that succesfull rehoming of a problem barker is highly improbable and is entireley dependant on the neighbours, including elderly, sick those with babies, those who do not like dogs, those who complain if the wind blows or simply those who do not want any external intrusion into the quality of their own dog free lives, etc, I feel those considerations are primary welfare issues when a de-barking op is an option for nuisance barkers. The de-barking op would solve the problem. 18166

Re: Vets & Debarking Operation. Reply #9 by Denis Carthy IP Address 86.142.40.252	Posted: September 15, 2006 at 20:20

Reply #6 by ex vet Absolutely not!, would you like your vocal cords removed? Denis I am surprised, very, that an ex or current vet, would asses this in anthropomorphic terms and impulse, please remeber a dogs life is at stake. Denis I think if a dog with a pattern of being normally quiet non nuisance barking dog and it suddenly starts barking it should be seen by a vet for a physiological problem, I should have made itclear in my first post that I did not intend my post to include such cases. There are vast variety of dogs and equally vast variety of owners. Many dogs are left alone for many hours per day and what I am talking dos which have a developed habit of nuisance barking whilst unattended, there is no known way of stopping such barking problems as the ‘causes’ can never go beyond an educated guess. There are no restrictions on dog owning and non planed, once a council or housing association starts they do not mess around, by that I mean the problem must resolved within days. I think makes the total context a little clearer ex vet, I look forward to your observations. 18167

Re: Vets & Debarking Operation. Reply #10 by Denis Carthy IP Address 86.142.40.252	Posted: September 15, 2006 at 20:23

Whoops I wrote: "I am talking dos" It should have read > "I am talking about dogs" (which have developed a nuisance barking habit) 18168

Re: Vets & Debarking Operation. Reply #11 by Julie-2 IP Address 62.253.128.15	Posted: September 16, 2006 at 14:19

When we rehomed our big boy who we lost last year our neighbours complained to the council about his barking. This was 7 yrs ago, but he was an ex-pub security dog, and we have a path which runs along the bottom of our garden on the other side of tall hedging and railings. He would bark at anyone who walked past our garden, and if they had dogs off the lead the dogs and him would each run back and forth barking to each other.There were also children who would deliberately come and call him and tease him further as in a couple of places the hedgeing was thin. He was not always like this, but for that first year he was still settling. I had to keep a stopwatch and make notes of every time he barked, the reason and time it, for 6wks. During this time, the council had also installed a tamper-proof tape-player in the neighbours home to record his barking. He had a v. loud and deep bark, being a 70lb GSD, but it was not above the level it would have to have been to be classed an environmental nuisance and so we were warned that it shouldn't be allowed to get worse, and nothing happened. I thought that all environmental nuisance matters had to be dealt with on these grounds, with a certain number of warnings being given, and 'evidence' collated by the council ? Would we have been dealt with differently had we not owned our home and it been rented from the council ?? I must say, debarking would be preferable to euthanasia in my view - but I understand, the policing of these things is nigh on impossible. I have heard, and it does seem to be the case from what I have seen, that it is stressed dogs who bark [apart from in play] - dogs who don't know their position and feel they need to guard, or are unsettled, or are worried or left on their own too long. Jan Fennell has said this also. 18195

Re: Vets & Debarking Operation. Reply #12 by Jude IP Address 81.157.215.209	Posted: September 16, 2006 at 17:42

Thats interesting I never heard of this before but on our estate which is quite large. I've heard of a few times its happened that people have had to get rid of dogs barking but dont know anything about any details or who it was. Glad mine doesn't but if it ever happened that I had one that did I dont see a choice. i would not put mine in rescue I cant ever imagine I could bring myself to do that, this sounds awfull but who wants a dog that cant live amongst peole, well it cant and thats it. 18207

Re: Vets & Debarking Operation. Reply #13 by Pat IP Address 86.142.42.149	Posted: September 18, 2006 at 06:28

Ive heard of it they do it in austraila but I dont know how common it is. 18239

Re: Vets & Debarking Operation. Reply #14 by Daniella Philadelphia USA IP Address 146.145.122.98	Posted: September 18, 2006 at 18:59

I am shocked at some of the responses. We have a wire fox terrier who barks incessantly and we have consequently being reported by our neighbor. We got him an anti bark collar and after 4 months he is now used to the shocks and it is useless. This evening we have arranged for a trainer to come to the house to see if she can help. If this fails, we will consider debarking - it is not uncommon here in the US. I could not FATHOM giving up our dear Axel (www.wiryaxel.blogspot.com), would NEVER in a million years send him to the pound - if we run out of options, we will debark. He comes from a top breeder who has also debarked some of his wires and other fox terrier people I am in touch with have done the same and suffered no ill effects. It's all very well saying you need to address the WHYs (why he is barking) - some dogs bark by nature - Axel barks at every noise and sound, he is home alone during the day and probably bored. Debarking is safe and humane - rather a dog with a reduced bark (he can still bark post surgery, it is just muted - dogs don't know the difference) than a euthanized one. How can you even compare the situations. Anyone who willingly gives their dog to a welfare org rather than consider this surgery - to my mind, never cared about the dog in the first place. Anyone who truly loves their dog would consider every humane option! 18246

Re: Vets & Debarking Operation. Reply #15 by Elaine IP Address 194.74.170.221	Posted: September 18, 2006 at 19:16

"Axel barks at every noise and sound, he is home alone during the day and probably bored. " So my question is - Why do you have a dog? Dogs are social animals and for them to spend the majority of their time alone is so unkind. Dogs are not little fluffy toys that you can put on the shelf for hours on end. Re-homing him would be the best thing you could do - for HIM. But no, you are considering having him mutilated for YOUR selfish reasons. And you talk about humane options......what is humane about keeping a dog isolated for the majority of his life. 18247

Re: Vets & Debarking Operation. Reply #16 by Denis Carthy IP Address 86.144.37.24	Posted: September 18, 2006 at 19:26

Denis I think you must mean the reply below. Quote: Daniella Philadelphia USA It's all very well saying you need to address the WHYs (why he is barking) Denis I think you must mean the quote below: Reply #6 by ex vet In a situation of a barking dog; address the underlying problem causing it to bark excessively, Unquote. Ex vet is talking nonsense or alternatively he or she is an ex-vet who has gone into the ‘Behaviourist’ market. I have only ever heard such comments been spouted by behaviourists promoting their trade. Here in UK they charge around £100 per hour and a bit visit ($187)and that reply, to me, makes me suspect a behaviourist is behind the comment as a promotion. 18248

Re: Vets & Debarking Operation. Reply #17 by ex vet IP Address 82.2.114.65	Posted: September 18, 2006 at 19:48

I'm not a behaviouralist. 18249

Re: Vets & Debarking Operation. Reply #18 by Denis Carthy IP Address 86.144.37.24	Posted: September 18, 2006 at 20:05

Reply #17 by ex vet I'm not a behaviouralist. Denis Well in that case, as an ex vet, can you tell us all the secret that only you know, namely, in the abscence of any written and conclusive medical condition how do you stop a dog barking in the owners absence? 18250

Re: Vets & Debarking Operation. Reply #19 by Denis Carthy IP Address 86.144.37.24	Posted: September 18, 2006 at 20:13

ELaine Why do you have a dog? Dogs are social animals and for them to spend the majority of their time alone is so unkind. Denis What arrogence and anthropomorphism, who are you to judge what is kind and what is unkind, theyare simply yor own notionns. It's highly unlikely there are less than 10 million dogs in Uk and what you are suggesting is that only the unemployed, rich, houseives and the retired should have a dog. The vast majority of dogs live alone for very large parts of the day, according to you those people should not have them. Many working dogs spend a lot of time outside, many service dogs do, te reason is so that they grow a double coat to work in cold weather, almost all farm BC's do the same. Your post is sheer arrogence probably from someone who has substituted dogs for people, those dogs are far more deprived than dogs which are cared for and loved as dogs. 18251

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